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5225037 No.5225037 [Reply] [Original]

Hello, I am the OP from this thread:
>>5215763 (OP)

Based on the feedback from that thread I wanted to make a guide on improving visual imagination because it came to my attention that no such guide existed. If you would like to read it it is located here:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BKyhc0poh6OhTBRz3ONQQAv3HfY-s-DbOFW-mn1CWNk/edit?usp=sharing

It is open to comments, and I would love some feedback.

Your visual abilities are improvable through hard work. Over the last couple of years I have cultivated this ability through the steps I gave in my document, and I have seen impressive results.

If you would like to link additional information to me, I would love to see it. Books or articles on the subject are hard to come by. I am also interested in possibly simplifying this so it can be turned into an infographic to be shared in future threads if you would like to help with that.

Sorry that I am a bit of a walking tldr, but sometimes you just write a post so long that you can’t even break it up into parts to feasibly post it (which I have done before). Sorry about that.

Feel free to leave if you are not interested, but it took me a while to make so some feedback would be lovely.

>> No.5225049
Quoted By: >>5225054 >>5225056

Good effort anon, but just getting better at drawing improves your visualization skills. It’s also hard for me to believe there’s any other way of improving your visualizations besides drawing.

>> No.5225052
Quoted By: >>5225065

Pyw OP.

>> No.5225054

>>5225049
its definitely impossible to improve your visualisation skills meaningfully but at least read the document first before posting

>> No.5225056

>>5225049
Drawing definitely helps, but I found that working it out and really focusing on it improved it a lot quicker than drawing.

>> No.5225065
Quoted By: >>5225194

>>5225052
Sorry, no. Give me a few years. The reason I started drawing was that my imagination was going too crazy for me to do nothing about it. My skills are still lagging behind a lot when it comes to actually composing stuff on paper. Drawing is really hard.

Learn to visualize better for experiencing art not drawing it. Like I said in the document, only practice can improve your art. No amount of thinking about drawing can do that.

>> No.5225155
Quoted By: >>5225170 >>5225207

People fucking hate the idea that you could teach yourself something through effort and practice.
"Ooooooo drawing will do it anyway"
"Ooooooo its genetic"
"Ooooooo i have aphantasia"

No, you can improve and train your mind's eye by focused practice. The only reason it grows during drawing is that you happen to utilize it a little. Now imagine (though you dont want to) what would happen if you sat down with the intent to stress anf practice the mind's eye for a few years. Insane mental gains. It gets easier to improve the more skilled you are. Drawing from the mind's eye is artistic bliss, so why would you deny yourself the attempting to develop it.

>> No.5225170

>>5225155
Couldn’t have said it better myself

>> No.5225179
File: 232KiB, 446x538, 1573302422727.png [View Same] [Google] [iqdb] [SauceNAO]
5225179

>>5225037
I never had any problem visualizing things but I appreciate the effort you put into this, good job anon

>> No.5225183
Quoted By: >>5225726

Hey OP, im curious on two things.
>can you mentally project images into your visual field?
>can you compare your visualization quality to anything? As vivid as real life? 720p video? Is it sequences of images or video?

>> No.5225194
Quoted By: >>5225211

>>5225065
>Sorry, no. Give me a few years.
worthless thread
if you got results from this method then show them, or else you're just talking out of your ass.

>> No.5225196

Weird question but where do you focus your perception when you visualize? On your mind's eye or on your physical eyes? I can see images in my mind's eye but I can also see vague shapes with my actual eyes. What do I focus on?

>> No.5225207
Quoted By: >>5225218

>>5225155
just teach yourself to have a higher iq then. Visualization ability is dependent on IQ just like maximum drawing ability is.

>> No.5225211

>>5225194
Science faggot. Ohhh my peer revioouws. Ooo my factual evidence.

Dude fucking try something yourself for once. Many people say is possible, sure that is all anecdotal but does that mean nothing to you? It is entirely mental ability. It isnt snake oil vitamins, it isnt a scam software. It is you using your brain and trying to make it better at this one ability.

No downside only potential upside.
Spend 15 min image streaming instead of 15 min /ic/ browsing

This is artistic creativity, and drawing/painting id artistic technique. You will theoretically reap massive rewards when your technique is perfected when compared to a person with low visualization skill.

>> No.5225218
Quoted By: >>5225260 >>5225784

>>5225207
Ability to visualize increases your ability to handle complex problems in your head. If you can quickly unfold experiments and comparisons in your head, your IQ scores are bound to get higher than if you couldnt.

Visualization is a tool that helps problemsolving.

>> No.5225255
Quoted By: >>5225784

I practice visualizing when I'm going to sleep, I don't worry about what I am visualizing, I just try and see it as vividly and precisely as possible. Sometimes it's actual things sometimes it's abstract 3d shapes, sometimes one turns into the other, the images are constantly morphing. Another thing I've tried is listening to fiction audiobooks with my eyes closed and trying to see the story in my head like a movie, I haven't done that much though, I mean to do it more.

>> No.5225260
Quoted By: >>5225284

>>5225218
all scientific evidence of IQ being increased by any type of training points to it not being possible at all.

>> No.5225263
Quoted By: >>5225284 >>5225298

>>5225211
how about i stream my piss into your faggot mouth

>> No.5225271

>>5225211
why not practice levitation or telekinesis if science doesn't mean anything? After all it's just "mental ability" like you said.


science tells us what is and isnt possible and improving visualisation ability is not possible.

When people say they've improved their ability to visualise what they really mean is they've improved their metacognition on those processes which were already innate to them. Its not that hard to understand

>> No.5225284
Quoted By: >>5225324

>>5225260
>>5225263
>>5225271
Let me guess, your permanent virgin status also comes from your genes?

>> No.5225298

>>5225263
>>5225271
Get a room

>> No.5225324
Quoted By: >>5225416

>>5225284
well considering both personality and natural physical attractiveness are heavily influenced by genes, yes

>> No.5225416
Quoted By: >>5225420

>>5225324
>He hasn't seen the studies about the tradeoff between social skills/attractiveness and intelligence in dna
>inb4 "that doesnt count" and "im an exception"

>> No.5225420

>>5225416
is that even relevant to what i just said? how does that prove your argument at all?

>> No.5225425
Quoted By: >>5229149

>>5225037
Thanks anon. This is a good resource.

>> No.5225448
Quoted By: >>5225467

I don’t see why visualization being correlated with IQ would imply that you can’t improve it. To me, being able to visually reason about things is different than having a vivid mind’s eye. I’m a mechanical engineer, and I’ve always been able to reason about how things fit together spatially and rotate them in my mind; and while I’m not abnormally smart, my IQ was tested at 131 as a kid. This would lend credence to the idea that “having a decent IQ => having decent visualization”.
However, just because I can rotate objects in my mind doesn’t mean that I’m “seeing” the rotation like it’s projected on the back of my eyelids like some people claim. I suspect “aphantasia” as people on this board understand it is really just a miscommunication about how people visualize things, but I don’t doubt that the strength of the images I have in my mind’s eye is as strong as my visual reasoning ability would imply. For instance, my fiancée is an artist: I’m sure that she has more vivid mental images, even though I’d certainly outperform her on any IQ-style questions that require visualization.

>> No.5225467
Quoted By: >>5225495 >>5225784

>>5225448
you do realise that if there was a low correlation it would mean that visualisation ability would be extremely variable among people with equal IQs. That would mean that it would depend on whether they trained it or not. However this is not the case and it seems that IQ plays a large part in how well you can visualise.

also 131 is high iq. It might not be gifted intelligence but you have to remember how many standard deviations that is, % of the population with a score that high

>> No.5225495
Quoted By: >>5225784 >>5225817

>>5225467
Yeah, that’s my bad for saying that visualization can be improved. I think that the component of visualization tested by IQ tests is probably pretty static. However, I’d definitely draw a distinction between “visualization” in the sense of being able to reason about objects in 3D space (which I’m relatively good at) and “visualization” in the sense of having vivid mental pictures (which I’m relatively bad at). While the former is likely impossible to train, I don’t see any reason to believe the latter can’t be. The latter is hard to talk and reason about though, because people use different language to describe the same effect - when most people close their eyes, they don’t “see” anything with their eyes, because eyes really just pick up light, but they can “perceive” things all the same. Some people describe this act as actually “seeing” something while others say “I just see black” and both of them are right. My fiancée claimed to be able to see things vividly in her mind’s eye, but when I pressed her about whether this actually seemed like an image that she was seeing with her eyes, she was confusedly like “no? My eyes are closed, of course I’m not, like, hallucinating stuff”

>> No.5225504

pyw or gtfo

>> No.5225524

>>5225037
yall ever smoke dmt?

>> No.5225726

>>5225183
>can you mentally project images into your visual field?
I would say yes and no. I would like some clarification on this question so I will answer multiple interpretations.
>interpretation 1: the schitzo
No, I do not look at things and then suddenly see them melt. I do not look closely at something and then see a little green man. If I want to imagine something I can't just manifest it into the real world.
>Interpretation 2: open eye visualizations
I typically visualize things through closing my eyes, forming a canvas, and then forming objects on that canvas. I can also "see" such images with my eyes open, but that is much more meditative. It works by distracting yourself so much with what you are imagining that you forget to focus on what you're seeing. You will notice that, with your eyes open, your vision will be drowned out by what you are imagining much like in a dream.

>can you compare your visualization quality to anything? As vivid as real life? 720p video? Is it sequences of images or video?
No to mental images are the same. The more you work with something the more it will make sense to you. The most vivid things for me to visualize are things like the faces of family members and friends. I would say images like this appear more vivid than real life for me because I am not limited by the focus of my eyes and the entire image appears fully rendered. Such vivid images look like they are being imaged under A microscope. On the exact opposite edge of the spectrum is pushing myself to imagine "swarms of things" (does someone have a better way to say that?). If I try to imagine something insanely difficult like 30 different cubes by imagining them in five groups of six, then they will look like nebulous blobs of volume or clouds. Focus is spread and focusing on any one cube would take focus away from the rest of the image. Of course, the "secret" to making a mental image more vivid is through practice and working with things you are comfortable with.

>> No.5225784

>>5225211
>>5225218
I agree with posts like this (without the whole IQ increase pseudoscience). Practice won't make you "smarter" per say, but it will change the way you perceive and process your thoughts. The goal is to change how you perceive the world and seeing art in new ways, not to become a literal supercomputer. That's stupid.

>>5225255
This is exactly what you should be doing. Just try to have wholesome fun and improve this ability.

>>5225271
>>5225467
>>5225495
>IQ plays a large part in how well you can visualise.
Maybe you're right, but see if you can prove yourself wrong. Work past your previous abilities and see if you still believe that IQ is your master. However, A sour attitude will certainly get you nowhere.
>I’d definitely draw a distinction between “visualization” in the sense of being able to reason about objects in 3D space (which I’m relatively good at) and “visualization” in the sense of having vivid mental pictures (which I’m relatively bad at).
I think I would too. Vividness is trainable and will help you with spatial reasoning, but it is not essential. There are plenty of artists with no mental imagery to prove that having a vivid mentalscape is not as basic as intelligence.

>> No.5225789
Quoted By: >>5225870 >>5225893

>>5225524
Nah that shit sounds too scary to me. I don't know what I would do after meeting space elves

>> No.5225817

>>5225495
>My fiancée claimed to be able to see things vividly in her mind’s eye, but when I pressed her about whether this actually seemed like an image that she was seeing with her eyes, she was confusedly like “no? My eyes are closed, of course I’m not, like, hallucinating stuff”
I realize that I need to add more clarification on the nature of visualization. When you picture something in your mind you are picturing mental canvas and then a form on that canvas. This canvas is your minds eye and without it you cannot picture anything. It is not possible (without having an altered brain structure through things like chemicals or mental illness) to manifest visualizations into the real world without this canvas of the mind's eye.

To a person developing this canvas for the first time it might be difficult to hear stories of people seeing things that are not there without equating it with hallucinations. While it is technically a form of hallucination it is a hallucination in the same way getting a song stuck in your head is. You will not really be hearing the music, but you will still "hear" it. You will not really be seeing what you are seeing, but in your mind's eye you will "see" it.

>> No.5225870
Quoted By: >>5225893

>>5225524
Fuck yeah bruh

>>5225789
Smoke changa it’s DMT infused into a smokeable leaf. It’s nowhere near the terrifying blast off that crystal is. It’s like taking a single puff of a joint compared to someone who’s never smoked weed ripping a whole bowl of chronic in a single bong rip. Works great, get trippy but remain in the room and in control

>> No.5225893
Quoted By: >>5229362

>>5225524
>>5225789
>>5225870
Drugs genuinely are bad for forming a strong visual imagination. They will change the way you process visuals in a way that is not really all that helpful to improving sober imagination. They will cause more damage than good, and If you want good and consistent gains then you need to stay away from drugs.

I didn't want to really focus any effort on confronting this but it seems that enough people are bringing it up that I have to. If you want to talk about atomizing your neurons with acid or any other chemical, then go to another thread. This really is not the place.

>> No.5225936
Quoted By: >>5225951

What helps me is just zoning out and daydreaming. Maybe recline your chair and close your eyes if you’re struggling. Keep a dream diary. Scribble shit down to jog your memory. When you’re awake, really take a look around you. The ribs and dents in your water bottle, the shiny spots on your monitor, the way your skin folds. Really look at things. You can apply this stuff to fantasy art.

>> No.5225951

>>5225936
That's really the first step. My guide is on how to refine your imagination past this point of daydreaming to be more intense and realistic. Observation is the heart of mental visualization, but it almost goes without saying.

>> No.5226003
Quoted By: >>5226887

>in lecture
>can visualize my daydreams without any effort
>sit down to draw
>mind is completely sterile
WHY THE FUCK

>> No.5226060

>>5225037
I made a poll to get a judge of how difficult the first exercise is for people. It took me months to get good at this and I am wondering where other people are at in the process.

This document contains the first exercise I am talking about:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BKyhc0poh6OhTBRz3ONQQAv3HfY-s-DbOFW-mn1CWNk/edit?usp=sharing

Here is the poll:
http://www.strawpoll.me/42688459

>> No.5226887

>>5226003
Exactly the same here

>> No.5229149

>>5225425
Thank you

>> No.5229199
Quoted By: >>5229239

>Do not visualize your emotions.
>Visualization is a form of meditation and introspection. It should be done with a blank mind or it will be more difficult to control. Do not take this lightly. This is more important than you think.
What is this about?

>> No.5229200
Quoted By: >>5229239

>>5225037
do u close your eyes for this or no

>> No.5229239
Quoted By: >>5229255

>>5229200
I find visualization with eyes closed is easier. There is less to get distracted by and it forces you to focus on the task at hand. You can see into your mind’s eye with your eyes open, but the results won’t be as vivid.

>>5229199
A lot of what it takes to improve visualization is improving mental discipline. If you can’t regulate your emotions while you visualize things you could go into a bad place in your mind and loose concentration. There is also the possibility that if you consistently let your emotions take over your visual abilities you will lose control over them entirely. It’s all about discipline and consistency and emotions are not either of those things. The fear is not feeling happy the fear is getting into a depressive visualization cycle or other visualization cycles built on emotions. This principle is important because it prevents you from weaponizing your mind against itself.

>> No.5229244
Quoted By: >>5229335 >>5229371

>>5225037
What if nothing works and I cant imagine anything at all no matter how hard I try

>> No.5229255
File: 46KiB, 643x478, 1607172859175.jpg [View Same] [Google] [iqdb] [SauceNAO]
5229255
Quoted By: >>5229293

>>5229239
>The fear is not feeling happy the fear is getting into a depressive visualization cycle or other visualization cycles built on emotions.
Huh... I didn't know women needed to take that into account. Thinking and feeling are completely separate in my head.

>> No.5229293

>>5229255
I don’t really struggle with it much, but it’s definitely something that you should be worried about. The trick is to just gently walk away from your emotions when they get too close. Visualization is a meditative pursuit after all

>> No.5229297
Quoted By: >>5229310

The emotion rule seems sort of weird, speaking as someone with a very vivid imagination and frequently creates animated narratives via listening to certain music. I didn't have any trouble with the exercises posed. I would honestly argue that my visualization got better because I started to put emotion into the things I was seeing.

>> No.5229310

>>5229297
The real reason I put it in there was because of stuff discussed in the thread before this. If you want to look into it go through that thread. There is a time in place for it, but if you’re immature it could have unintended consequences.

And trust me, I know what you mean. I’ve had profound imagery pop into my head that has just floored me. It can be fun to compose things using music and emotional connection, but to build a good base for composition it’s good practice to have a clear mind and then working on top of that.

>> No.5229335
Quoted By: >>5229371

>>5229244
dont worry about it. as others have already said in this thread, visualisation is not actually a trainable skill and you can still get better at art without all this wishy washy bullshit that OP is pulling here.

don't waste your time on this and just focus on art gains instead because being an artist does not seem to depend on how well you can see pictures in your brain unless you want to become kink junky or whatever his name is.

>> No.5229362
Quoted By: >>5229389

>>5225893
Source: my ass. This is like saying drinking alcohol once destroys your balance or some retarded shit. Atomize my fucking dick.

>> No.5229371

>>5229244
>>5229335
You sure can try to use my guide, but my guide is built on the assumption that you already have a good visualization ability and would like to improve it. I would be hack if I told you I could give you a visual imagination or even bring a person of lower skill up to my level, but, responding to the people that say this isn’t a trainable skill, with this method I have reached what can be called breakthroughs with my visualization ability.

If you have no visual ability what so ever but desire one, I’m really not your guy. I think you could probably find something of value in my guide, but it’s definitely not made for you.

The introduction I wrote explains all of this.

>> No.5229389

>>5229362
Source: I have persisting perception disorder from a acid trip that my friend convinced me to try. It took me months to regain control and I still struggle with my imagination trying to fall into unintelligible fractals. I stopped drinking caffeine to bring my symptoms down and luckily they are now almost completely gone. After over a year. Not everyone will get persistent perception disorder, but everyone should take their mental health seriously.

To clarify I have visual snow so I was predisposed to the disorder.

>> No.5231061
File: 216KiB, 650x960, 3BB6604D-6E45-49E3-9EA3-4281B8D51588.jpg [View Same] [Google] [iqdb] [SauceNAO]
5231061

Just in case people are interested I’m setting up a version of the documents with edits allowed.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1J5Uz88L7Lc1IrQjUZU5GGzk1UXXKyL7X_y6hMAfEMR4/edit

I’ll act as a moderator but feel free to add or take away anything you want.

>> No.5231142
File: 638KiB, 1242x2208, AD5E4850-1FA9-4167-8D71-5A94EBCF8A46.png [View Same] [Google] [iqdb] [SauceNAO]
5231142
Quoted By: >>5231156

I’m about to go to work but I just got this email. I don’t remember even signing up for this but maybe it will be useful. Hopefully they save the livestream.

Here’s the link if you’re interested:

https://youtu.be/oH86xYwP8BI

>> No.5231156
File: 216KiB, 1080x1331, 9D1FFB33-20B8-4B04-8A13-79DDEB522AEA.jpg [View Same] [Google] [iqdb] [SauceNAO]
5231156

>>5231142
>Professor Joel Pearson is the Founder and Director of the Future Minds Lab, at the University of New South Wales, Sydney Australia. Future Minds Lab strives for radical discovery and the application of those discoveries to reduce suffering and optimise performance. Joel studies the mechanisms and application of mental imagery, amongst other things, using behavioural, human brain imaging and brain stimulation techniques. He is now considered the world's expert in mental imagery and Aphantasia. We are pleased to be hosting our first live Ask Me Anything event with Prof Joel Pearson!

>> No.5231422
Quoted By: >>5232100

>>5225037
>Optical illusions
One good way to train your perceptions is to take a look at optical illusions. They will make your brains go in limbo, when it tries its best to make sense of the image. Optical illusions make you aware of the true state of things, which allows you to gain invaluable insight. Once you have the understanding, you can have very accurate visual images in your mind, which are much more easier to put on canvas. That said, I find that perception is as much about the ability of imagining things visually in mind as it's about seeing the physical subject.
https://www.deviantart.com/nsio/art/Nsio-s-Four-Tools-for-a-Successful-Drawing-481622060

>> No.5231753
Quoted By: >>5232067

>>5225037
Were you the same person who made that Googledoc about learning to draw original works instead of studies and then deleted it?

>> No.5232067

>>5231753
No. This is my first google doc. I wouldn’t mind reading that document, but it’s not mine.

>> No.5232100

>>5231422
I don’t know if this one is very true for me. I’m pretty familiar with M.C. Escher’s work and his collection of optical illusions and from my own experience I would not say they’ve really challenged me mentally ever. To visualize stuff like that in 3D space is just not practical, and what makes it confusing doesn’t necessarily make it better for challenging your mental abilities. I read through the rest of what this guy had to write and I think he seems like a really good resource, and I respect his terminology, but I, personally, don’t really see the merit in this.

I really don’t mean to be rude by this at all. I appreciate the resource. I would appreciate anything else if you have more you wish to share. Thank you!

>> No.5232104
Quoted By: >>5232179

OP can you elaborate how much you've improved by? A few examples would be nice. Also, have your dreams become more visual too? Do you lucid dream?

>> No.5232179
Quoted By: >>5233616 >>5234411

>>5232104
>improvement
I have always been a daydreamer with an active imagination. I remember in first grade pushing myself to imagine a meteor crashing into my school. Looking back on the memory it looks really rudimentary. I would say that my visual abilities have improved since then. It is really hard to date when I first had certain visions considering how much history I have in my head, but I think around the time I first started pushing my imagination and trying to gain control over it was with a vision that popped into my head of the three dimensional outline of a man entirely made out of blue with the red outlines of the bones and organs I knew at the time. It was a glass model of medical drawing I had seen or something like that. I remember just being somewhat floored by how complex and strange a visualization like that was.

The heights of my imagination are really difficult to put to words anymore. A good way to describe it is just crowds of people walking around lush scenery with beautiful architecture. It can as abstract or as structured as I desire. It is absolutely gorgeous. Where I was just four years ago tames in comparison to where I am now.

To clarify I have gone from imagining one shoddy cube to being able to imagine dozens if you want a more objective measure.

>dreams

My dreams are very visual, yes. I almost always lucid dream now. It comes with the territory I think. I always make fun of myself in dreams for skimping out on the set design always in a semi-ironic way. Like “you’re going to have to try harder than that to convince me I’m dreaming”. I’m always thankful for the dreams that are truly beautiful. I always say things like “wow, you’re actually doing well tonight”. When it’s good it’s really good. I would say that my dreams are not as vivid as my daydreams, however. I get lazy in my dreams and don’t actually put all the time you should into producing details that should be there and then I make fun of myself.

>> No.5233616

>>5232179
Sorry if this post is self-indulgent. I don’t really know how to describe my imagination very well.

>> No.5234411
Quoted By: >>5234419

>>5232179
thank you for the well written response!

This is a very well written guide. Thank you! Here is a bump.

>> No.5234419

>>5234411
(:

>> No.5234489

bump

>> No.5235382
File: 987KiB, 1136x1463, B67773F3-1A3C-4C79-968B-DD9EC591D238.png [View Same] [Google] [iqdb] [SauceNAO]
5235382

Unless people want to see more from this thread (tell me if there is), I’m probably going to retire this thread and start a new one tonight. This new thread will be on the same topic with a few revisions to make it more accessible and less text wall.

I hope you have enjoying this thread! I’m going to stop bumping it and let it die now.

>> No.5235707

>>5225211
Okay, then povide an anecdote via pyw.



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